AWS 62 - Summer/Autumn 2021

Place discussions about upcoming events here in this thread.

Moderators: BeligerAnt, petec, administrator

User avatar
GeorgeR
Posts: 277
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:53 pm
Location: Bath, Somerset

Re: AWS 62 - Summer/Autumn 2021

Post by GeorgeR »

I'm going to have to agree with the others, I don't see any issues with modified rc cars and such like. It provides a cheap and easy way into antweights for beginners, and they're never particularly competitive, so it's not like there's no incentive to build your own.

I believe the rule was initially introduced because people were using hex bugs to get around the 4th entry cluster rule (ie. a slightly underweight ant with a 3g hexbug). Maybe I've missed something but I don't think that's been an issue recently.

4way fights sound fun, although I suspect big spinners like RBMK might have a quiet time with everyone avoiding them!
Team Zero - AWS 58 Champion!
Zero - rambot - - Axiom - axebot - - Valkyrie - drum spinner
Blueprint - rambot - - Vampire - horizontal spinner - - Particle - ???
RBMK - quad spinner gyro walker - - Duality - dual spinner gyro walker
TeamPanoramic
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:00 am

Re: AWS 62 - Summer/Autumn 2021

Post by TeamPanoramic »

Tufty wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:22 pm As a noob with solely modded RC cars at the moment I have no issue not being able to attend the next AWS. We'll still have to be distancing and probably limiting competitor numbers, so this as a one-off doesn't bother me.

If it became a more permanent rule, it could cause amateurs not to make the step into the sport at all. Plus Baphomet would surely love to eat another of my clusterbots someday!

The rule regarding off the shelf items was once in place since late 2014 if I recall right. There was a team who had entries made up of Nikko RC toys at AWS 61 (I think it may have been you guys), who were let off the hook as it was your first event.

I am proposing a few loaner flippers in case any teams show up with nothing but modded RC cars, similar to what I once did at RoboShowdown with one of my commissioners. I’m hoping to have 3 or 4 flippers and plan to limit one driver each.

There are a few others who also aren’t keen on modded toys in the competition, they can explain it from their view on it.
Tufty
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:39 pm
Location: North Wales

Re: AWS 62 - Summer/Autumn 2021

Post by Tufty »

TeamPanoramic wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:05 pm
Tufty wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:22 pm As a noob with solely modded RC cars at the moment I have no issue not being able to attend the next AWS. We'll still have to be distancing and probably limiting competitor numbers, so this as a one-off doesn't bother me.

If it became a more permanent rule, it could cause amateurs not to make the step into the sport at all. Plus Baphomet would surely love to eat another of my clusterbots someday!

The rule regarding off the shelf items was once in place since late 2014 if I recall right. There was a team who had entries made up of Nikko RC toys at AWS 61 (I think it may have been you guys), who were let off the hook as it was your first event.

I am proposing a few loaner flippers in case any teams show up with nothing but modded RC cars, similar to what I once did at RoboShowdown with one of my commissioners. I’m hoping to have 3 or 4 flippers and plan to limit one driver each.

There are a few others who also aren’t keen on modded toys in the competition, they can explain it from their view on it.
Yeah that was indeed me, only one of my entries was flagged as a possible breach of rules, the rest were let through without any comment. That was because although it fitted into the cube, it did so a bit snugly. I did offer to withdraw that one, but as you say I was let off.

I've just looked back over the rules and there doesn't seem to be anything about modified (or even unmodified) toys being banned - if there was I wouldn't have brought them to AWS 61. Looking through the various rule debates I also can't see anyone even discussing it, at least not in OPs.

Obviously my long term plans aren't to keep buying cheap toys and screwing aluminium onto them in the hopes that they'll not immediately die, but as cheap, uncompetitive starter entries they're a good way to learn the basics before investing money into things like 3D printers, bespoke electrics etc.

But as I said a page or two back, with the way lockdown has been going for the past year, I support any initiative to limit numbers at AWS 62, but longer term rule changes should probably be debated somewhere other than this thread.
Debuting at AWS61 (hopefully): Teething Problems / Kitten's Torment / The Beatle... Waits (Fleaweight, Antweight clusterbot)
Eli
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:09 pm

Re: AWS 62 - Summer/Autumn 2021

Post by Eli »

Do you plan to run a wooden spoon competition at this AWS?

We run them at MKBFC events as a set of qualifying rumbles which each have their top 2 robots go into one final rumble for the spoon, so 4 or 5 fights in total. As long as you have a way of keeping track of who exits the tournament with 0 wins, they provide a guarantee of a third fight for everyone who shows up, an incentive for people to stick around to the end and a good way to fill time between later rounds to give teams in the top 16 more repair time. The spoon prize itself is also cheap.

If you run one in this case, you could also enter any robots who get disqualified at tech check for breaking any commercial system rules directly into the wooden spoon as a compromise. You could also do that for robots that break any of the non-safety-related rules, like the size and weight limits, or robots who show up late.
Tolerable Music & Robotics

Nanoweights: Rebel
Fleaweights: Rebel + Cause (AWS 61 2nd place!)
Antweights: I Hope It Rains, Killbo Stabbins, Step Up
TeamPanoramic
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:00 am

Re: AWS 62 - Summer/Autumn 2021

Post by TeamPanoramic »

Tufty wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:31 pm
Tufty wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:22 pm
But as I said a page or two back, with the way lockdown has been going for the past year, I support any initiative to limit numbers at AWS 62, but longer term rule changes should probably be debated somewhere other than this thread.

The event will NOT go ahead until all COVID restrictions are lifted. Once the ban/limit on social contact has been lifted, I will start proposing to run AWS 62
TeamPanoramic
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:00 am

Re: AWS 62 - Summer/Autumn 2021

Post by TeamPanoramic »

Eli wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:25 pm Do you plan to run a wooden spoon competition at this AWS?

We run them at MKBFC events as a set of qualifying rumbles which each have their top 2 robots go into one final rumble for the spoon, so 4 or 5 fights in total. As long as you have a way of keeping track of who exits the tournament with 0 wins, they provide a guarantee of a third fight for everyone who shows up, an incentive for people to stick around to the end and a good way to fill time between later rounds to give teams in the top 16 more repair time. The spoon prize itself is also cheap.

If you run one in this case, you could also enter any robots who get disqualified at tech check for breaking any commercial system rules directly into the wooden spoon as a compromise. You could also do that for robots that break any of the non-safety-related rules, like the size and weight limits, or robots who show up late.
I could always do a wooden spoon, with what I intend to do we should be good for timing
razerdave
Posts: 1548
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:40 pm
Location: Carterton, Oxfordshire
Contact:

Re: AWS 62 - Summer/Autumn 2021

Post by razerdave »

My 2p worth:

I don’t like the use of RC toys, however it is an entry level antweight really, and there is definitely no rule against them now, since the rules were slim lined and that got removed. The reason they were taken out before was because they were mostly used as a cheap cluster component and due to our cluster rules, it often resulted in cheap wins even after taking out the near-full weight AW.
But with so many genuine ants now and the toys being more “1st event then I’ll make something properly”, we may as well just let them in.
Tufty
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:39 pm
Location: North Wales

Re: AWS 62 - Summer/Autumn 2021

Post by Tufty »

TeamPanoramic wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:10 pm
Tufty wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:31 pm
Tufty wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:22 pm
But as I said a page or two back, with the way lockdown has been going for the past year, I support any initiative to limit numbers at AWS 62, but longer term rule changes should probably be debated somewhere other than this thread.

The event will NOT go ahead until all COVID restrictions are lifted. Once the ban/limit on social contact has been lifted, I will start proposing to run AWS 62
Makes sense, missed that part.
Debuting at AWS61 (hopefully): Teething Problems / Kitten's Torment / The Beatle... Waits (Fleaweight, Antweight clusterbot)
User avatar
LimaHotel
Posts: 252
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:30 am
Location: West Devon

Re: AWS 62 - Summer/Autumn 2021

Post by LimaHotel »

Eli wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:32 pm
  • Annihilator rules: The fight is paused after each KO and all active robots are returned to starting postitions before reactivating. Battle continues until 2 robots remain.
  • KO = progression: If a robot causes another robot to become immobilised, it automatically becomes one of the fight's winners regardless of what happens following that point. It can still attack and be attacked and if it subsequently gets knocked out, the robot causing that will become a fight winner as well. In the scenario described in my earlier example, A would go through while being unable to continue and C and D would fight to become the second winner.
  • 2 simultaneous battles: The battles billed are A vs B and C vs D but both take place in the arena at the same time.
I know I'm late to this party, but very THIS.

Annihilator: My concern is that this approach will wind up not saving the time we're realistically hoping for.

KO=Progression: I LIKE THIS, though it does open the door to controversial judges. I still think this is my preferred option.

Simultaneous Battles: This strikes me as most realistic. Whilst a little limiting, it's not really any different from the existing system, to the point that you wouldn't even need to change Antlog. And that's the big one - YOU WOULDN'T EVEN NEED TO CHANGE ANTLOG. As such, much as KO=Progression is a nice solution, I think this is the most realistic. This does have the option for the faster winner so to speak to have the option to dictate (Or at least influence) the winner of the slower fight. Is this a bug, or a feature?

Ultimately, we're trying to competitively balance group battles - a format which will NEVER be competitively balanced. The inclusion of group battles at all is a "necessary evil", so a certain level of competitive imbalance is acceptable. And given we've still got double elimination, I don't think it's gonna anger toooooo many people.

So yeah. I like KO=Progression as an eventual system, but as a system we can run at an event NOW (Not that we can run events NOW) I think simultaneous battles is most realistic.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RC Cars debate. Hmm. I would take issue with this if it were prevalent, but it's not. I actually prefer fighting (And if it were to happen, even losing to) modified RC cars than unmodified Shakeybots (Sorry Alex) as at least I'm fighting something the other guy thought about for more than 2 seconds. To clarify - I don't have an issue with Shakeybots either, just that if you were to KEEP running a unmodified Shakeybot event after event (Or an RC car based bot event after event) then you're not really engaging with the spirit of things. As an entry point, kit / bought / modified toy bots are fine and if they're getting people into the game then I'm all for them. As a long term team solution, I'm less enthusiastic. Again, this isn't currently a problem (Nor can I think of anyone who runs unmodified shakeybots as their team, so that's not a problem either) - I'm just kinda exploring the idea of when I would consider this to be a problem.

Also I love seeing bots made from random household objects - Advent (The RC computer mouse with a nail on the front) was HILARIOUS, and I don't want rules to accidentally discourage that kinda wonderful nonsense.

I am LOOKING FORWARDS to events again though, and cannot wait to see all you friendly faces again, new and old! You can bet that I'm gonna be at 62, whenever and wherever it is!
Jiggy Sawdust
Jammin' Good with Weird and Flippy
The Pushbot from Mars
MySolderIsOlder
Posts: 161
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:22 pm
Location: Kent
Contact:

Re: AWS 62 - Summer/Autumn 2021

Post by MySolderIsOlder »

My main concern with the '2 simultaneous battles' model is what happens when evil spinner 'A' accidentally damages 'C' or 'D' while trying to launch an attack on 'B'? Given that some of the most destructive spinners are also among the hardest to control, I'd say this is likely to happen a lot - particularly if 'B' has the good sense to hide behind 'C' or 'D'.
There's also the broader issue of those bots that have little or no control over the direction of attack, such as PoW (the ultimate edge-case), or pretty much anything with me at the controls. Risks of accidentally impeding or taking out one of the adversaries in the 'other' fight are considerable.

With 'Annihilator rules', the stop-reset-start risks eating into the time gained by 4-ways. As for 'KO=Progression', a bot could go through by administering the coup-de-grace to a bot that has already been almost incapacitated by another competitor in the bout.

All 4-way fights are going to involve a compromise to some degree and claims of 'unfairness', so arguably it's best to go for the simplest possible route, vis 'last 2 standing' (AntLog or equivalent permitting). Remember, this is only being proposed for certain stages, so the chances that an absolute no-hoper is going to win AWS62 by staying out of trouble all the way through are minimal.
Stuart (Anthony's dad)
Post Reply