Rule Debates

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DieGracefullyRobotics
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Re: Rule Debates

Post by DieGracefullyRobotics » Wed May 02, 2018 3:54 pm

Thanks Lincoln :D

I agree, we could do with some solid judging criteria.
Dave
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AntRoboteer
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Re: Rule Debates

Post by AntRoboteer » Wed May 02, 2018 5:33 pm

The two minute fight concept would not be ideal in the current robot climate.

An example is the following (I know I am focussing more on spinners but I believe there are of course going to be other cases, just these are really game changing):

Currently we have spinners which, while deadly for ~1.5 - 2 mins, are eventually limited in some way by battery power (spinning up on a drained battery is difficult). Therefore, non spinners have the best chance of taking out the spinner in the final minute. There have been multiple cases of spinners failing due to power or being damaged within the final minute recently but very few (if any) judges decisions required.

Additionally, a spinner deals most of the damage in the first part of the fight currently. Due to damage being a very obvious thing to judge on, when fights are taken to a judges decision, the spinner shall almost always be awarded the win. The only thing which will happen if a 2 minute fight rule is implemented is a greater chance of taking the fight to such a judges' decision. This is therefore increasing the probability of an unfair victory/loss.

Changing to 2 mins would swing bias more towards spinners and make other machines uncompetitive while solving a problem we do not have. The fights should stay at 3 minutes in my opinion.

As for the arena, the current arenas are great and there is no real reason for a change there, just a need to document what we do now.

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Lincoln
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Re: Rule Debates

Post by Lincoln » Wed May 02, 2018 8:10 pm

Due to damage being a very obvious thing to judge on, when fights are taken to a judges decision, the spinner shall almost always be awarded the win.
i agree. This is why we need official guidance on how to judge fights, preferably not completely on damage and other factors should be considered more, like control and aggression, which is different from damage. you may say that this would mean that non spinners are Favorited in judges decisions, but i think at least 90% of spinner fights are over pretty quickly and if it lasts 2 minutes then maybe the non spinner deserves to win. i lasted the full 3 minutes against a spinner without relenting and definitely felt hard done by that the judges immediately gave the spinner the win with no thought put into it. but if that fight stopped at 2 minutes nothing would have been different.
Changing to 2 mins would swing bias more towards spinners and make other machines uncompetitive while solving a problem we do not have.
Time may not always be an issue at every event but we all love the fun and games at an event after the main aws. so we could still have some time saving measures. and this spinner bias would be countered by new judging criteria.

so i think the enemy is not the 2 minute time limit change, but a lack of judging guidance.

reading this, it may seem like i'm salty about previous judges decisions, but i'm just campaigning to fix what i see to be the only place where we get unfairness in the competition. for example theirs usually no way to depute if a robot is in the pit or not.
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AntRoboteer
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Re: Rule Debates

Post by AntRoboteer » Wed May 02, 2018 9:13 pm

The only fights that go the 3 minutes need the 3 minutes and the other fights are not impacted by keeping the time frame the same because, as stated, most fights rarely go the 3 minutes.

The 2 minute fight limit would have quite a few adverse effects.

I would propose clear judging criteria (documented in rules ideally) and keeping the 3 minute time limit the same.

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Shakey
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Re: Rule Debates

Post by Shakey » Wed May 02, 2018 10:09 pm

Honestly the amount of fights that would actually swing the other way if stopped at 2 mins instead of 3 is small enough that the benefits of getting more time in the day outweigh those few fights. In the end we'll just adapt to the change and plough on ahead.

I don't think it would even greatly increase any spinner biased, certainly not to horizontals which are already disadvantaged by dropoff. Even a spinner of DHMIS's calibre can run for a heavy 3 mins and the spinners that are in danger of running out of power are not the ones taking a couple of mins to write a bot off.

Certainly I feel the judging criteria being more visible is important. And the raft of unwritten rules it runs under, there's often quite a few debates about a rule that was decided on but never written down and everyone remembers it differently.
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DieGracefullyRobotics
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Re: Rule Debates

Post by DieGracefullyRobotics » Thu May 03, 2018 7:11 am

I agree with Shakey.

I also don't really think the "2mins is bias towards spinners" point holds much water but even if it did it would be easy to argue that 3mins is therefore bias towards non-spinners anyway. Using previous fights as examples is also immaterial because all new fights would be run under the new criteria anyway. "If that had gone 3mins instead of 2, I might have won" would be a pointless argument to raise.

I'm not sure we need to change anything right now anyway. It's more an idea in the tank should AWSs start to pack out again, which I hope they do.

I definitely agree we need some solid judging criteria. The problems with judging are obvious though - the best way is to have a panel of 3 pre-approved people who do not compete, who watch every fight with full attention and make every call, but obviously this isn't very likely. We need to go back to assigning them at the start of each fight, with the participants having the right to reject anyone they may feel will be bias against them, then we need solid criteria that will be the same for every decision. Its a slight faff and often not needed anyway which is probably why the practice has dropped off but we can reinforce it again.
Dave
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AntRoboteer
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Re: Rule Debates

Post by AntRoboteer » Thu May 03, 2018 6:43 pm

As far as the judges are concerned, I personally feel that this aspect has been handled really well recently. Especially at AWS 54, the judges/arena marshalls only had one robot each and were therefore able to watch all of the fights. It's actually been a very good experience from that perspective. I feel the judges have been fair and well informed so no problems have arisen so far. However, I agree there is potential there for problems due to different takes on how/why a robot should win and so it would be nice to have a clear, documented set of judging criteria.

As for the 3 minute rule, I agree we should leave as is for now and worry about it when/if the AWS events become more packed and fights are taking significantly longer.

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DieGracefullyRobotics
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Re: Rule Debates

Post by DieGracefullyRobotics » Thu May 03, 2018 6:57 pm

Good to hear that allocated judging has been of a decent standard recently. Kudos to the event runners.
Dave
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Paulmchurd
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Re: Rule Debates

Post by Paulmchurd » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:26 am

Destructive and non destructive category.

I know time constraints but it would be interesting to see which event people would sign up 2. Maybe the same amount of people but even split so the day will go smoothly.

Then people who don't want their bots damaged can go to battle knowing they won't face spinners.

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DieGracefullyRobotics
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Re: Rule Debates

Post by DieGracefullyRobotics » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:22 am

We used to run a non-spinner warm up competition but time is far too tight nowadays. Adding any secondary tournament to an AWS day is pretty much impossible unless the numbers drop again.

I think non-spinner comps are a good idea at non-AWS events but I don't really see the point at the official ones. If you want to compete in an official tournament you should be up for taking on whoever you draw, in my opinion. No tournament is compulsory, after all. And we do have the tap out rule in place.

Anyway, there's nothing like seeing a nervous first timer beat a scary spinner. Happens all the time and boosts the confidence of the roboteer ten-fold.
Dave
Die Gracefully Robotics - Barely Even a Proper Team.

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