Dominance of pushers at AWS46

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Rapidrory
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by Rapidrory » Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:33 pm

Extended time limit as in we don't get kicked out at 6:00 since it's in my shed :P Also hoping to have some other extra bits and pieces, but they'll be announced nearer the time.. expect a certain amount of madness though :L
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Shakey
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by Shakey » Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:54 pm

Remote-Controlled Dave wrote: Stanley is a phenomenally well built machine, but even Alex himself has stated its boring and wants to build something else. Hib's doing well with his EDFs, so everyone is starting to build EDFs or things that can beat them (which happens to be strong pushers). It's trends isn't it?
The best way to create innovation is for people to build innovative designs. Sometimes this involves giving up chances of winning, or sometimes it can yield surprising results. Like the walker talk on the other thread, it took people to go "I'm going to build a walker regardless" for them to start to increase in number. If everyone wants to say "I'm not building a pusher", then good on them. I am hoping none of my next 4 will be pushers. If people want to join me in that, that's their choice.
I do like the idea of mixing up arena design, buy that again takes someone to take up the hassle. If money is an issue, maybe we could all donate something, but all these things involve people making pledges and seeing them through. And that's up to them.
Thanks :D And as you say I like Stanley but it is a boring robot to fight with. Now I can see why pushers get made, they are simple and effective for one. For builders who may be not as skilled at building they are a good starting point and we'll never be pusher free for that reason. However the current state does lean towards them, even with the reduced sidewalls slightly leaning things towards spinners and flippers. I fully intend on never entering a pure pusher again now and hope to bring lots of spinner nastiness and weird crazy contraptions to antweights.

On the arena front that is the thing that controls the most popular kind of robots mainly, but we do need to be careful that whatever we do we keep it fair and also just generally viable. An arena with only a pit is nice and certainly discourages pure pushers but in the already time pushed AWS just isn't feasible. Now Rory can attest that in my test arena I built to practice (see the pic below) even something as simple as breaking up the edges with those obstacles greatly increased the skill involved in fights, especially since I made the start positions so robots couldn't charge head on to start with. Also ingenuity like bully dozers all wheel drive abilities are rewarded as it can climb over the obstacles. I have an arena idea, give me some time to paint.net it up. I'm also happy to attempt to build arenas if I hit on a design people like, though the polycarb I have isn't exactly see through stuff. :P

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EpicentrE
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by EpicentrE » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:09 pm

Shakey wrote:...but in the already time pushed AWS just isn't feasible
I really am not a fan of this line of thinking; I know we're pushed for time, but specifically considering that you don't want to have long fights as a criteria of your arena design is just not the way to go about it, in my opinion. Of all the things that should suffer to save us time, long, exciting fights between evenly matched robots which go down to judges decisions should not be one of them.

On the subject of time, has it ever been considered to change our time limit to two minutes instead of three? I think there's a few American insect-weight communities which use two minute fight timers, but I'm not sure off the top of my head. Just some food for thought. It's pretty rare - I'd say almost never - that something happens in the third minute which changes what the result would have been at the end of two minutes.
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Shakey
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by Shakey » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:23 pm

EpicentrE wrote: I really am not a fan of this line of thinking; I know we're pushed for time, but specifically considering that you don't want to have long fights as a criteria of your arena design is just not the way to go about it, in my opinion. Of all the things that should suffer to save us time, long, exciting fights between evenly matched robots which go down to judges decisions should not be one of them.
That's not what I'm saying, I'm saying that if the arena is so convoluted it forces long fights even between unmatched robots then it's gone too far. If every fight lasts the full length we'll never get through a contest. I love the longer more exciting fights as much as anyone. The arena I showed in my picture is designed SPECIFICALLY to make fights last longer but without overdoing it. It's not about long fights, it's about unnecessary long fights where the competitor is fighting more the arena than the other robot.
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by Remote-Controlled Dave » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:51 pm

We need a balance, that's all.

Scott, I suggested the two minute fight thing last debate but it was generally met with a "what's the point in that?" from most people who commented, though I still see it as viable. The fights most likely to go 3 mins are generally not the exciting ones with two very active robots, more the opposite. 2 examples from AWS Coventry - Zoink vs Ghost of Robots Past (two slow walkers buffering for three mins) and SDF GTI vs Tagada (one too slow to do much and the other too twitchy to try for a risky push out). Neither of these fights would have suffered losing a minute and it would not have effected the outcome either.
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by EpicentrE » Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:34 am

I apologise for misunderstanding you Alex; I now get what you mean and totally agree. A good arena should allow for long and closely-fought fights between evenly matched robots, as well as the ability for a superior robot to dispatch of a lesser one quickly.

I think maybe a 2-minute time limit could slot under the same category as only bringing 3 robots per team; an optional tool event organisers can use to help cut down the time a tournament will take to run that doesn't have a massive negative effect. That said, I wouldn't be against changing the limit to 2 minutes in all circumstances if there were more support for it. I can't remember a time in recent memory where the third minute has been anything but superfluous.
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Rhys
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by Rhys » Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:01 am

The third minute in the second final of AWS 41 was pretty gripping!

Would anyone fancy going along to a non-AWS event before the next AWS? I was considering seeing if there was any interest if I was to organise a non-AWS event in the next couple of month. If there is, maybe we could experiment a bit? Fully enclosed arena? 2 minute time limit? only 2 entries per team, and a third slot for a walker/cluster/spinner? Might liven things up a bit. There would certainly be less pushers for an event like this.
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by EpicentrE » Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:06 am

I am up for any and all events of all sizes and natures. So yes please!
Scott Fyfe-Jamieson, Captain of Epic Robotics. Champion of AWS38/41/42.
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Occashokka
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by Occashokka » Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:15 am

That would be great i would love to get some more events under my belt
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peterwaller
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Re: Dominance of pushers at AWS46

Post by peterwaller » Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:40 am

Me too your last went well.

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