2i) Clusterbots

A discussion forum for proposed changes to the AWS rules (2014)

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Craig_Anto3
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2i) Clusterbots

Postby Craig_Anto3 » Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:23 pm

I'd like to see the it added to the rules that cluster bots must start each fight how they fit in the cube.

Can I also point out that IR is not currently covered in the rules, at present, any bots that have IR controllers are actually not within the rules and cannot compete. We either need that adding or we need to enforce it.
I make that point because people use the hexbug as part of clusters and they currently do not meet the rules.

If we are to get strict on rules we will have to outlaw hexbugs too.
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Re: 2i) Clusterbots

Postby BeligerAnt » Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:35 pm

There is no rule against using IR control, nor any rule mandating radio control. In fact, in the definitions IR is explicitly included:
Remote control - Control without physical contact between the robot and the controller (i.e. conventional model radio control, bluetooth or infra red; no wires or strings etc.)

Thus any form of "wireless" remote control is allowed.

I don't think it's realistic to inisist that cluster-bots start as they fit in the cube. In fact, if both botlets meet the requirements of the fleaweight rules they do not actually need to fit in the cube together:
2i) The botlets of a clusterbot must altogether meet the size and weight limits of the class in which they are competing (i.e. all three botlets of an antweight clusterbot must all fit in the same four inch cube at once), but if two fleaweights are competing as botlets of an antweight cluster then they must each conform to fleaweight size and weight restrictions.


At the risk of deviating from the rule under debate, my biggest problem with clusterbots is that many (most?) do not comply with the following rule:
5h) All teams must be self-contained in terms of driver, transmitter, robots and battery packs, i.e. these cannot be shared with another team.


This rule exists to ensure that fights in the group stages can actually occur without a person/transmitter having to be in two places at once (and resulting in an arbitrary decision over which robot "won").
The rule means that any team entering a clusterbot must have 2 drivers and be independent of any other team.
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Re: 2i) Clusterbots

Postby StuartL » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:44 am

BeligerAnt wrote:At the risk of deviating from the rule under debate, my biggest problem with clusterbots is that many (most?) do not comply with the following rule:
5h) All teams must be self-contained in terms of driver, transmitter, robots and battery packs, i.e. these cannot be shared with another team.


This rule exists to ensure that fights in the group stages can actually occur without a person/transmitter having to be in two places at once (and resulting in an arbitrary decision over which robot "won").
The rule means that any team entering a clusterbot must have 2 drivers and be independent of any other team.


This would certainly return the 'spirit' of clusterbots to its original intention. The way it's currently used is more like a team-deathmatch :)

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Re: 2i) Clusterbots

Postby Hogi » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:15 pm

I can see why transmitters should be self contained to each team but there are plenty of people who's walker/clusterbot slot isn't filled and therefore enough spare drivers for clusterbots. i've driven the tiny part of peter's clusterbot for the last 3 AWS events and only been drawn against it once and when that happened pete simply got craig to step in and drive alsoran for that fight.
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Re: 2i) Clusterbots

Postby Shakey » Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:53 pm

I disagree with the driver having to be self contained. I'm a team consisting of 1 roboteer. By that rule I can never fight a cluster bot.
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Re: 2i) Clusterbots

Postby Craig_Anto3 » Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:27 pm

2m) The following radio frequencies are acceptable: 27 MHz, 40 MHz, 418 MHz, 433-434 MHz, 868 MHz and 2.45 GHz.

infrared is not covered in this, it just needs updating.
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Re: 2i) Clusterbots

Postby Remote-Controlled Dave » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:24 pm

I disagree with the driver having to be self contained. I'm a team consisting of 1 roboteer. By that rule I can never fight a cluster bot.


This is the point I argued last time this came up. By the self-contained driver logic, only teams with two or more drivers can enter clusters, which rules out most people.
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Re: 2i) Clusterbots

Postby StuartL » Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:12 am

Dave26 wrote:
I disagree with the driver having to be self contained. I'm a team consisting of 1 roboteer. By that rule I can never fight a cluster bot.


This is the point I argued last time this came up. By the self-contained driver logic, only teams with two or more drivers can enter clusters, which rules out most people.


It encourages teams for cluster-bots rather than individuals, i.e. RoboteerX and RoboteerY form TeamZ, entering a bunch of individual robots with individual drivers and a cluster-bot with both drivers.

I'm torn on this one. The advantage of the current model is that 'anyone' with 'anybot' can form a cluster, however to me this isn't the idea behind cluster-bots. I'm all for 'team deathmatch' style battles, which is what the current cluster-bot interpretations have become, but I'd also love to see well engineered 'real' cluster-bots working as a team, practising as a team and winning as a team, rather than the current 'pair of individuals'.

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Re: 2i) Clusterbots

Postby razerdave » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:45 pm

My cluster is a self contained team bar the driver, doesn't mean they work well together :P. This is why I am making a new cluster.

My opinion is that clusters should be self contained, but allow for 'external' drivers. I mean, how many cluster robot builders have 2 team mates? Only one that springs to mind is Alisdair and Neil (Salt and Pepper, but Neil doesn't drive the other half..).

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Re: 2i) Clusterbots

Postby Hogi » Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:44 pm

i've fought a few clusterbots and i think most of them have been the “ team deathmatch style ¨, i doubt many clusterbots would compete if we passed a rule that disallowed clusterbots formed by botlets from multiple teams. that may've been why so few of them competed on robot wars. we like to encourage variety in ants and putting tighter restrictions on clusterbots limit even more what amateur roboteers such as myself can do with that fourth entry slot.
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Re: 2i) Clusterbots

Postby playzooki » Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:54 pm

also the external driver rule means that people wont be making cool 3 or 4 part clusterbots :P

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Re: 2i) Clusterbots

Postby Remote-Controlled Dave » Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:41 pm

I'd like to see the it added to the rules that cluster bots must start each fight how they fit in the cube.


Also, thinking about this, 99% of ants don't fit in the cube the same way they go into the arena! Most go in sideways or on the diagonal. So why should it be one rule for clusterbots and another for ants? If this rule was ever enforced, I'd argue ants should have to do that same, and no-one wants that.
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Re: 2i) Clusterbots

Postby Hogi » Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:48 am

good point well made Dave. a clusterbot is still an antweight, it's just an antweight that consists of more than one seperate parts.

as for hexbugs, i see no real reason for banning them. apart from the frequency rule they are compliant with the current rules and i don't think their infrared radio set ups interfere with any other radio system commonly used. sure, it would be excellent to fight a self contained cluster that was actually designed to be an antweight clusterbot rather than two fleas with the two flea cluster rule being an added bonus but i don't think we should make it mandatory that all clusters are self contained.
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Re: 2i) Clusterbots

Postby Occashokka » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:03 pm

Wow,quite some heated debate on this one!
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Re: 2i) Clusterbots

Postby peterwaller » Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:44 pm

Is it permissible that a cluster can fight part or all of a fight joined together. :roll:


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