Rule 2j - name labels (and typographical error with rule 5e)

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joey_picus
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Rule 2j - name labels (and typographical error with rule 5e)

Postby joey_picus » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:43 pm

2j) Robots must be clearly labeled with their names. A clusterbot must display the name of the cluster on all botlets.

I am aware that my opinion on this is already well known and some people will be going "no, Joey, please don't" upon seeing this, so apologies in advance :) but I would like to propose this rule be abolished for the following reasons:

- it's never been especially well enforced - in theory it should be checked before every event, but I've only seen this happen a few times and it doesn't fulfil any sort of safety purpose;
- The main reason I've been given when asking about it in the past is so robots can be distinguished and identified on video - I don't believe the resolution of video or live streaming is anywhere near good enough to make out the text on most robots, and with recent events commentary tends to fill the role of identifying robots for the audience;
- The other main reason I've been given is to prevent people swapping out one robot for another between rounds - surely there's enough differences between robots that look similar to be able to tell, and I'd like to think as a community we're above that in any case!;
- The other other main reason I've been given is to identify robots to the event organiser, and I would argue that the start of the day tech check would provide enough opportunity for the event organiser(s) to learn which robots were which - and as most event organisers are roboteers themselves, they tend to know already!
- The rule allows for a lot of abuse while remaining within the letter of it (mostly by me), as there's no requirement that the name be written in a prominent location, in the English language, or using the Latin script, so a robot can have its name written in Japanese, or indicated on the base panel in Braille, and technically comply with rule 2j while not providing any of the supposed benefits.

Therefore, I'd like to politely request for the rule's removal if possible?

(Also, I do wish to point out that in rule 5e, the references to earlier rules are wrong - it identifies the name label rule as 2i and edge protection as 2j)
Joey McConnell-Farber - Team Picus Telerobotics - http://picus.org.uk/ - @joey_picus
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Re: Rule 2j - name labels (and typographical error with rule

Postby haz » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:54 pm

I'm up for letting go of the name labels rule. People can and probably will still have them, its just not forcing people to should they not want to "spoil" their robots appearance or resort to putting silly names in silly places.

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Re: Rule 2j - name labels (and typographical error with rule

Postby Psychostorm » Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:11 pm

I disagree. I think it should remain in force.

The only reason I, as a competitor with a really bad memory*, actually knows who I am fighting next is because they have the name written on the machine.

It's not really like anything is shaped like what it's named after. Corn snake is neithera snake nor corn flakes. R2D2 ewok defense doesn't look like R2D2 or an ewok. Robot simulator is real but does look a robot, which really is a needle in a haystack job at a robot combat competition. Then you have Yo (forgotten celebrity's name), stop coming to my house.


* I mean a seriously bad short term memory. I once beat Harry with Angry Bird having completely forgotten he was driving the robot I saw him hold earlier.

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Re: Rule 2j - name labels (and typographical error with rule

Postby earthwormjim » Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:10 pm

I agree with Joey.
I have no idea what the name of an opponent robot is a lot of the time. If it is labelled, 9 times out of 10 it is written in felt tip pen on the underneath, (like all but one of mine).
So it is pretty much unreadable anyway. Bin it, I say. :)
The only time when it is actually of use, AFAIK, is during registration. But not to any huge extent.
Dont get me wrong,it is really nice to see a name emblazoned proudly onto a robots armour, but to be forced to do it is pointless I think.
Cheeeers Jim.
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playzooki
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Re: Rule 2j - name labels (and typographical error with rule

Postby playzooki » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:34 pm

Maybe the judges / eo's could have a printout with pictrues of all the robots and their names?

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Re: Rule 2j - name labels (and typographical error with rule

Postby StuartL » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:36 pm

Psychostorm wrote:I disagree. I think it should remain in force.


I'm with Psychostorm on this one. As a frequent spectator but not-yet-competitor I would have very little idea of which robot was which at my first competition. Being able to read the robot names on the robots rather than repeatedly asking is very useful. For me felt-tip pen is absolutely fine...

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Re: Rule 2j - name labels (and typographical error with rule

Postby earthwormjim » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:28 pm

I totally agree, StuartL.
I think that being able to walk around the pits and see a robots name on the robot would be great. But it absolutely does not happen like that at the moment with the current rule in place. The vast majority of robot names are not visible when they are in the pits. How about name plates for robots for when they are resting between fights,could be as simple as a piece of a4 paper with the name in marker pen. it would be the only way to be able to actually easily see a robots name. It is impractical to have all robots names clearly visible on the robots.

Something as simple as this would be great, I think. It would be much more visible than trying to fit a long name on a short robot, with a marker pen.
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Think I might do this at events anyway! :)
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Re: Rule 2j - name labels (and typographical error with rule

Postby joey_picus » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:44 pm

I might be with you on that one Jim :) it'd serve the purpose a lot better than mandating name labels would I think, and it'd help me organise my pit space a bit better!
Joey McConnell-Farber - Team Picus Telerobotics - http://picus.org.uk/ - @joey_picus
"These dreams go on when I close my eyes...every second of the night, I live another life"

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Re: Rule 2j - name labels (and typographical error with rule

Postby earthwormjim » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:46 pm

Joey wrote:I might be with you on that one Jim :) it'd serve the purpose a lot better than mandating name labels would I think, and it'd help me organise my pit space a bit better!

Hi Joey! :)
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Re: Rule 2j - name labels (and typographical error with rule

Postby peterwaller » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:31 am

With the number of robots at the last few event you will be lucky to get that much space for all of your team.
I must admit I think that names on robot is a great thing and I would go further and say it should be legible, in english, clearly visible with the robot in its start position and enforced. :D

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Re: Rule 2j - name labels (and typographical error with rule

Postby BeligerAnt » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:15 pm

I'm with Peter on this one.

I dispute Joey's assertion that a quick look at each robot during tech checks is enough for an event organiser to commit 90+ robots to memory!
Also I think "clearly labelled" is self-explanatory enough without us going overboard and specifying contrast, text size, language etc.
I don't have a problem with a robot with a Japanese name being labelled in Japanese, although if we get too many we may have to call on Oliver's linguistic skills :)
Braille does not count as "clear labelling" since it is impossible to read at a distance. Severely visually impaired roboteers for whom Braille is the normal method of reading/writing would of course be welcome to use it ! :D
Labelling a robot (only) on the underside is similarly unclear.
As Peter says, there is often limited pit space for robots let alone elaborate labels. This seems like a flawed plan as robots will inevitibly end up on the wrong piece of paper or not labelled at all. I would far rather we enforced rules regarding robots than labelling in the pits.
There are still plenty of polycarbonate boxes, which have been joined by a bunch of black HDPE boxes over the years. Now there is a new wave of white Shapeways boxes. Without some names it's very difficult to tell which is which.

I don't really understand the objection to putting a name on a robot. If aesthetics are important, work the name into the design. If not, just write the name on or stick a paper label on. It's not really difficult compared to building a robot in the first place!
Gary, Team BeligerAnt

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Re: Rule 2j - name labels (and typographical error with rule

Postby peterwaller » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:45 pm

Think about it Joey if you put a name on it people are less likely to think you named it after a well known catalogue store. :roll:

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Re: Rule 2j - name labels (and typographical error with rule

Postby razerdave » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:13 pm

Hahaha, Mr Waller be trolling :)

I'm not bothered if it's in the rules or not, all of mine will have a name anyway. It does help with identifying though.

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Re: Rule 2j - name labels (and typographical error with rule

Postby joey_picus » Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:45 pm

We might have to agree to disagree Gary, I don't understand the reasons for the rule in the first place :) I hadn't considered the point about the increased number of robots, I'll freely admit that, although I still think 'clear labelling' being defined as 'read from a distance' is problematic. This is why these consultations are good though, we can keep revisiting the need for the rule in future (and in the meantime I can continue researching different world alphabets!).

Peter: Little known fact; Arcus has existed for thousands of years, and Argos was actually named after it to appease it and prevent it biting customers' ankles, not the other way around.
Joey McConnell-Farber - Team Picus Telerobotics - http://picus.org.uk/ - @joey_picus
"These dreams go on when I close my eyes...every second of the night, I live another life"

playzooki
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Re: Rule 2j - name labels (and typographical error with rule

Postby playzooki » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:56 am

the thing is, how far is that distace? im short sighted and from a distance, i may have trouble reading the names, as the nax size for text would be 10x10 cm. and on most robots, it would be a lot smaller


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